Nevyn's Models

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Nevyn's Models

Post by LongtimeAirman on Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:44 pm

Nevyn, I must say, Your overall model work in this Chemistry section is quite impressive. You may be relatively new to chemistry, learning on-the-fly, as-it-were, but you routinely describe the charge flow mechanics of these structures with ease. I cannot find much to criticize. I am overwhelmed, nor do I seem to be alone in that regard.

I don’t recall Miles writing about Hydrocarbons, (and a word search hasn’t turned up any hits either). You are breaking new ground.
Note: 1) I complained that the wiki hydrocarbon page link wasn’t visible, but found it became visible when I logged it. 2) Also I initially misinterpreted the three images at as being 2-d arrays, and I now see that you are giving 5 examples of each of the Alkynes, Alkenes, and Alkanes families. 3) At Re: Hydrocarbons - Arenes, you wrote “It is a bit hard to see this molecule within a single image since it is 3-dimensional so here is an animation of it.” I don’t see a link, but I can see the orthogonally joined loops in my mind’s eye.

You’ve explained your models very clearly.

The idea of C-C bond caps, as opposed to three or four parallel protons as bonds, sounds completely feasible. Especially as you’ve shared your reasoning, citing the 4 parallel protons bond configuration as a much more difficult bond to work with, better suited as an ultimate transmission cable. And you later show how easily these capping protons can be replaced with other atoms and molecules.
How would you describe the charge flow within an Arenes or Cycloalkanes loop? For example, Miles recently said that a proton changes charge flow from polar to equatorial. The neutron takes polar flow, and emits polar flow. These loops seem to me (to some extent) to be representative of a sort of neutral structure. Might they recycle less charge (as a neutron recycles less charge than a proton)?

In your Nuclear Structure of Aluminium posting, you said “I think I am happy enough with that. Unless others can find something wrong with it I will declare Miles model the winner. Now, I'm off to write an apologetic email to Miles for questioning this model.” Did you write Miles? Has he replied? Have you not written him with regard to Hydrocarbons?

How can we introduce you to the world? It seems to me that if you packaged your work in a proper format, Miles would include your work on his site. Any ideas? Discussions are welcome.


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Re: Nevyn's Models

Post by Nevyn on Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:04 am

Thanks Airman, I've put a lot of time and effort into both my photon spin application and my chemistry modelling app and in doing that, I had to really look at what was happening. It took many reads of Miles relevant papers and by doing the spin app first, it really helped me to visualize the charge fields around the atomic nuclei. I've also spent a lot of time trying to understand the math, from calculus to vectors, and this really helps with many concepts in physics. Some of this can be found on this forum such as my discussions about mass and spin velocities, etc. I really can't recommend it enough. If you want to talk physics, you have to have some understanding of calculus and a pretty good understanding of algebra and vectors. Vectors are pretty easy to understand but you need to use them a bit to be able to play with them in your mind. This allows me to look at an atom or molecule and see where the charge flows, where it enters and where it exits. I create these vectors in my head and try to figure out how they interact or how they might affect other entities nearby. It's not an exact science but it can be fun (most of the time).

You mentioned the animation on the Arenes page which is no longer working. That is because the forum image server does not support GIF images (even though it clearly states that it accepts them, it just converts them into a JPEG) so I hosted them on my own website but that has been taken down recently for lack of traffic to it (it was a free hosting site so you have to expect that kind of thing). If anyone knows another way to get that GIF hosted, as a GIF, then I am happy to get it working again. I haven't looked into it myself as it only went down last week.

Regarding charge flows of the ring based hydrocarbons, I think it helps to get a good idea of how the hydrocarbon chains emit their charge and then curl it up and see how the charge fields mingle with each other. The chains tend to have a strong through-charge which keeps the chain tightly held together and is fed by the hydrogen atoms bonded along the chain (as well as the normal ambient field). Some of this charge is going to be emitted about the equator of each carbon atom in the chain to form the general charge field of the hydrocarbon which will also have spikes in it where there are hydrogen atoms linked to the chain.

I'll try to draw that in ascii art:


You can see how the center of the carbon atoms (||||) provide the general charge profile and the hydrogen atoms create spikes at regular intervals, although these are only in 1 dimension where as the carbons emit their equatorial charge into 2 dimensions).

Now we take that and wrap it up into a ring. I have removed all hydrogens from the inside of the ring structures because the C:H ratio does not need them to be in there and they would get in the way of forming a ring. This leave the equatorial charge from each carbon atom emitting some charge into the ring. This charge is going to mingle with the charge coming from the other sides and it depends on the particular ring arrangement as to how this charge mingles.

I basically look at each carbon atom and see a vector perpendicular to the central axis of that atom and see where it points to on the other side of the ring. If it is pointing to another carbon body, then the charge is going to collide and build up in the center of the ring. If it points to a carbon-carbon join, then it will feed this join and provide more strength to the structure. The more carbon atoms in the ring the more complicated this becomes but the rings also become larger which allows the charge to disperse a bit and therefore not collide as much. It would be good to see if the properties of these rings match this idea by looking at the strength of different ring structures. If rings that have carbon bodies that point to carbon joins are stronger or have more stored energy, then we have evidence that I am on the right track.

I don't think they will recycle less charge, in fact, I think they will actually store charge, both in the chain that forms the ring and inside the ring. The ring arrangement allows the molecule to feed itself, keeping some charge that would be lost in a normal hydrocarbon chain like the alkanes, alkynes and alkenes.

I did send an email to Miles saying that I was happy with his model of Al after some consideration but he said that he would prefer to look at the problem himself without looking at my solution so that mine doesn't corrupt his view of it. I haven't heard anything about it since then. I also mentioned in that email that Phosphorous is another troublesome element and he just published a paper about it, not really about what I had mentioned, but still he is looking in that area at least.

I haven't mentioned my work on hydrocarbons to him in any great detail. A few years ago when I was asking for some clarity with respect to atomic models, I told him that I was working on building molecules to test his models and that was when I was just starting to build these hydrocarbons and a few other molecules. He said that he was glad I was working on it and welcomes any help. He also told me that I can publish any of my work if I wanted to, but also warned me of the trouble that can bring with it. In the end I did publish this stuff to my own site (pretty much just a copy of what I had posted to this forum) but no-one cared so I didn't get any flak for it. I might try to write it in more of a 'paper' style and send it to him. He might publish it on his own site. He also might have other ideas on how it works. Even if it just gets Miles thinking about them and he comes up with his own solution would be fine with me.

How can we introduce this stuff to the world? Well, that's why I posted it here on the forum. I wanted to get feedback from you guys but also to 'get it out there' so it wasn't just something for myself but others could get some use out of it, even if they disagreed with it. I'm more interested in finding other interesting molecules to build than promoting my work (I'm more of a Wozniak rather than a Steve Jobs) but I'm happy for it to get out there too.

Last edited by Nevyn on Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

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